Leave for training courses

I thought I posted a reply to this ages ago, but appears not.

The girls were happy with the compromise we came too which is to pay them half pay for the day that they're off, and to include this in any repayments (along with course fees etc.) if they leave our employment during the next two years.


Thank you all for your helpful suggestions too.

I'd be interested to know how this panned out in the end Janus? an interesting topic.

in theory, there is no law that says an employer need pay for a course/training or even study leave it all depends on who u work for and if they are decent employers.
when i first studied the national cert i attended once a month, my course was paid for (not my travel) and the 1 day a month i studied, i had the option of using holiday time or no pay.
I thought it was unfair to use my holiday time so i just used any time i accrued over time and if i hadn't then i didnt get paid.
I looked at this as being a short term thing and i would benefit in the long term! With regards to other members of staff who have qualified, you can always suggest a certain amount of 'paid study days' and look at cpd courses so that u can fufill your cpd and still be paid that way everyone would be equal.

After nearly 6 years as a nurse, i have actually learnt to pay for my courses, not ask for study leave but take unpaid days. I know money is an issue but this way i have done my own thing out of my own pocket and i am not beholdent to anyone!
I know this is not the best advice but i have found some practices 'polotics' really biased and this way i owe nothing to anyone except myself.

Even though I fully understand the difficult logistics of time and money with having members of staff absent whilst being paid and the impacts this can have on a business - it is definitely not kosher to make nurses use annual leave for education. But I think that has been established already.
It is a tough pill to swallow, but I believe that when someone is running a private (and this counts NHS practices, as essentially they are also private but have "won" a contract from the local PCT) and professional medical practice - in any area - the training needs/lawful requirements of the hired staff should fall to the business owner.
In regards to what an associate(?) said to her, if the terms are not in righting it's all carbon and oxygen - nothing. Terms and contracts should be signed before a person starts working if they have any sense.
This last statement doesn't necessarily help any more as you have already hired the staff but what the heck...So say in the case of a new or existing practice needing a new DN. The practice has two options

1. Hire a newbie. This can be great as you can get someone who is really enthusiastic and willing to learn, you can also mold this person to be perfect for your practice. But, you have to invest in that person to make them a dental care Professional and a long term member of your team. If this is your chosen route, it would not be unreasonable to require in return for your investment a longer period of loyalty. Back when I trained I had to sign a two year contract stating I would pay course fee's and the time that I had off for my course if I left before this period. Myself and my other collegues at the time found this more than reasonable as we could clearly see the employer was investing both time and money in us. This I feel is also a good way of going about is as it will weed out the short termers/less committed people from the process, as I am sure many people would think "Lord, two years?"

2. Hire an experienced and qualified person. This is clearly a good option as you can cut out the drama and stress sometimes associated with training/trainees. The bad points to this are clearly, some nurses may have gained very bad habbits deemed acceptable at the previous practice and they may be resilient to re-molding and doing things differently (emphasis on the MAY) If however you can not get these nurses to apply then the terms of employment that you are offering are not good enough. Up the pay, up the annual leave....improve benefits.

I think that most practice owners forget to really think about the difference between costs/time/commitment between training new people and improving the desirability of the positions they have on offer.

But again, I fully understand it is a pain in the back side.

I have recently qualified after nearly 4 years nursing, the reason it took so long was trying to get onto a course because they were changing the structure or whatever.
i went for a whole day every 3 weeks for 18 months. I worked in an NHS practice then moved to a private practice halfway through. i had a half day on the day of college so i was missing my half day by being at college so i got a whole day off after every 4th day of college to make up for using my half day and i still got paid.
I think it a bit unfair to take girls annual leave for a course they have to do in order to carry out their job and yet it seems you are penalising them for this. yes to if the course day finishes earlier than their normal working day take the time from them then, but also taking the time they have accumulated through over running clinics is unfair.

Im sorry for being negative and i do understand where you are coming from, but if the girls college days are only every couple of weeks could the dentists make those days admin days?
I think a staff meeting with everyone to view their opinions would be a good idea. If your current fully qualified nurses didnt train with your practice ask them what happened when they went on their course.

I do hope that everyone is happy with the final outcome. Let us know how you get on tho

It is all a bit of a nightmare really. We had a similar problem recently.We had a trainee nurse who had only been with us a couple of months when one of the other nurses left at very short notice (one day!!). We advertised and only had 3 apply, two of them allegedly hated their jobs. We could match their hourly rate but cos we only work a 34 hour week and they were doing 40+ neither of them accepted the job. The 3rd girl had never nursed before but we had to just go for her. Our problem is that we nurses are responsible for our own paperwork and filing. I also have to deal with the patients accounts, pay lab and materials bills and deal with all the admin and appointments for clearstep and implants. I'm supposed to get a day out of surgery a week for this but as you can imagine it's quite tough on the dentist working with an inexperienced nurse. Think good nurses are going to go the same way as the dodo!! We are expected to qualify, pay for registration and do CPD but don't get the wages we deserve.
After saying all this though I have to add that I love my job and have worked for the same dentist since leaving school 22 years ago!!

There are only 3 courses available locally which are all daytime, and we're reluctant to use one as the standard of teaching when two other girls went was poor, so we're a bit stuck really.

The other annoying point is that one of the girls had been employed at another dental surgery prior to joining us for well over a year and a half, and they'd not signed her up to any course as per GDC requirements, so by now she should already be qualified.

Locally there seems to be little interest from registered dental nurses for dental nursing jobs since the retention fee came in so we have had to bite the bullet and take on girls with no experience and train them up.

I think yes to make them cover the time from their holiday allowance, once I realised it was 25 days for their course is a bit stingy, and perhaps there's another arrangement we can come to, maybe to award a number of study days, and award them to all staff in order to make it unbiased, but request that they take at least some of it from their holiday allowance and time card so that they don't benefit over their colleagues.

The course is an hour and half shorter than our working day, so I would feel aggrieved if they were paid a full days wages for a shorter day than I was working.

It's all making my head spin a little as I hadn't really taken into consideration the costs of paying them to attend and cover their abscence with other staff, my rough calculations along with paying their course fees have put it at about £10000

Are there no evening classes they can attend? Our girls go in the evening once a week. The practice pays for their course and exam but like you they have to sign a contract saying they will pay back the money if they leave within a year.It seems a bit harsh that they have to take it out of their holidays after all the practice took on unqualified unregistered staff.

I work in a dental practice where we are currently going to have two of my colleagues starting the NEBDN course this month. They're both full timers and will both be attending for a full day about every other week. We're paying all their courses under the proviso that they stay and work at our practice for at least a year after completing their training.
I've asked them to sign a contract which states this and also that on the days that they're away from work they will be paid to attend the course so long as it's out of their holiday allowance, or they use their timecards (where they can accumulate time on their card when the surgery runs over etc., and take it off when the surgery finishes early).
Unbeknown to me when one of the girls was interviewed one of the senior partners said she would be paid irregardless and receive travel expenses, so now she doesn't want to sign the contract as she doesn't think that she'll be able to have every day off paid.
I rang ACAS who said that if there is a contract it can still stand even if it's not signed, but obviously it's better if it is, and with training, if your employee requires the training in order to stay in your employment then realistically they should be paid for it.
I am curious how other practices deal with this situation, as we are looking at two girls off on a course, paying them on top of their holiday leave to attend, paying their course fees, as well as having to pay two more members of staff to replace them on the day they're off.